Episode 21: The Optimization Trap: When Actors Do Too Much (And Spend Too Much)

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  This transcript is automatically generated to make Supporting Actors accessible and searchable. While we strive for accuracy, automated transcription may contain occasional errors, typos, or speaker misattributions. Please refer to the audio or video master for the exact context of the conversation. Notice a major slip-up? Let us know at ask@supportingactors.com.

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  Sean Dube: Hello and welcome, I'm Sean Dube.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And I'm Patrick Quinlan.

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  Sean Dube: And this is Supporting Actors, a podcast about the art, business, and craft of acting from the perspective of two sometimes working actors.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and today we're gonna talk about, The optimization trap.

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  Patrick Quinlan: the… I feel like optimization's the big thing on every Instagram account, and it's been a trend for a while.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And, it doesn't always line up, I think, with the needs and demands of creative life.

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  Sean Dube: Yeah, and this is separating busyness from business, right? In a lot of ways, where I think it's easy to kind of want to get caught into, like, endless workshops and classes and, like, more, more, more, more, more, especially right now, where it's a little quiet.

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  Sean Dube: Right? And, like, auditions quite haven't picked up yet from the industry, and some of us have been sitting around for a little too long, and then there's ample opportunity to separate you from your money.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And you know what? It also lines up

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  Patrick Quinlan: so diabolically, I think. I… this could be total paranoia, but I believe… I'm just getting a sense from a couple different industries on the social media. Acting and…

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  Patrick Quinlan: entrepreneurial business stuff, that, like, September is the time where people are trying to sell.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And they're just trying to… they're like, you're back from summer, now's the time. You feel like you've taken a break so we can, like, use your guilt.

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  Sean Dube: Yes.

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  Patrick Quinlan: your capitalist-ingrained guilt of, I haven't been as productive as I want, to start buying a program, a workshop, joining a group, and…

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  Patrick Quinlan: And some of those things can be really good, and also you could be tempted to buy 10. So it's just like, how do we find… I don't know if we'll ever find balance, but how do we talk to ourselves and about our craft and our acting, and without falling into the…

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  Patrick Quinlan: The algorithm's desire to part you with your money at all… and time, and attention at all costs, you know?

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  Sean Dube: Well, that cyclical cycle, well, I guess that's redundancy, but anyways, that cycle…

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  Sean Dube: It's… I learned this when I was a personal trainer. There's two big spikes every year. It's like March, April, May, right? Like, that's huge.

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  Sean Dube: And then there's September, October, and then it dies at November during the holidays, right? Like, and those are two big retail peaks, and it happened when I was a manager at the Home Depot, it was the same time frame, and then as a personal trainer, it was, like, the same time frame, and now in entertainment, it's the same time frame, so I think it just… a lot of it has to do…

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  Sean Dube: with just how, our events are scheduled throughout a year. But September just tends to be a month after summer, we're all, like, ready to get back to work, right? Kids are going back to school.

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  Sean Dube: We were home from vacations, and now it's like, alright, let's…

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  Sean Dube: kind of grab the reins here and make some decisions, and people,

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  Sean Dube: We'll promote during that time for you to see their business and…

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  Sean Dube: try to get you to engage in their thing, and you can get some really good deals. You can find some really great products and services at this time, but there is definitely…

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  Sean Dube: A cliff that you can fall off of.

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  Sean Dube: In terms of, too many.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and it's so easy now, right? Because I think so many things are virtual, and at your disposal.

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  Sean Dube: Yes.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Like, with just a click of the thumb, and so, you know, I'm like…

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  Patrick Quinlan: I find my… I found myself, like, oh, yeah, I did sign up, I was on vacation, I signed up for these alert… these email notifications about something that looked interesting, but now I've gotten 10 emails from these people, I… I opened the first one, and…

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  Patrick Quinlan: It's time to unsubscribe and, like, get focused, you know?

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  Sean Dube: Or the worst is when you then start getting emails from other things, because they sold your contact info.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

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  Sean Dube: Yeah, that's, like, super frustrating, but that certainly happens.

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  Sean Dube: But, yeah, so the whole point of this episode, though, is to kind of look at when are you trying to over-optimize, when are you trying to do too much.

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  Sean Dube: And, you know, there is…

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  Sean Dube: a time and a place where you want to do more things, and then there's also, like, what… how do you find the minimum effective dose to that, right? Like, what is the smallest amount of money that you can spend, the smallest amount of time that you can spend, that's going to yield…

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  Sean Dube: the maximum return, right? Because sometimes more is just more, it's not better, and you can, like, oversaturate, at least this has been my experience. I've oversaturated my, like, input.

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  Sean Dube: Right? Where I'm, like, trying to do classes, like, and I'm doing, like, I mean, drama school is its own thing, but, like, when you're outside of that maelstrom of development.

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  Sean Dube: you know, I've done, like, movement classes, acting classes, voice classes, while trying to, like, work full-time with a schedule that's, like, rotating, and then I'm also trying to do, like, casting workshops, and just trying to do way too much. And then…

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  Sean Dube: for myself.

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  Sean Dube: I find that I can do that for, like, 3 or 4 months, and then I have, like, a huge burnout, where all of a sudden, it's, like, that accumulation…

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  Sean Dube: Just leads to a spot where you just need to…

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  Sean Dube: Like, pull the plug for much longer than you should have to, or you would have to if you were just, like, modulating your time and money better.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, I mean, there's the idea of, I forget where I read this recently, but, like, the four burners theory, and it's like.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Or, you know, people talk about, you know, you can, I think Bert Kreischer talks about on his, on his inappropriate podcast, like, you know, there's career, family, and there's the scene, and you can have two.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And you can give all your attention to it. But the four burner would be a similar idea, where if you have a stove with 4 burners.

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  Patrick Quinlan: If you've got one going, it can be pretty powerful. But if you've got two burners going, it's gonna take away. Imagine spreading it out 4… to the four burners, you've now spread yourself thin, you're not really getting a boil on any one burner, and so you're not being as…

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  Patrick Quinlan: effective anywhere. And I, I, I have to call myself out on that, like…

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  Patrick Quinlan: pretty regularly, of just… or at least I can see in the past where I was doing that, and, you know.

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  Patrick Quinlan: When you're younger, you have the energy sometimes, and to sort of work hard, play hard, but as you…

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  Patrick Quinlan: get older, you kind of realize where you didn't mean to spend all that energy, and where you'd rather spend some other energy, and and so I think it would be fun to talk about that as it comes to…

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  Patrick Quinlan: Our artistry, and also the business side of acting.

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  Sean Dube: Yeah, a quote that comes up to me, and I forget who it's from, and maybe I'll

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  Sean Dube: Try to Google this real quick.

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  Sean Dube: Let me try to Google it.

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  Sean Dube: Here… Oh, well… Great.

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  Sean Dube: So, a quote from Sweet Home Alabama, actually. The movie. But essentially, what comes down to is the sage advice is one ass can't ride two horses. And, you know, that's…

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  Sean Dube: It's something that I do think about every so often, when you're, like, kind of getting too scrambled, and that's kind of what it is, right? It's like…

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  Sean Dube: It's like, no, you're doing too many things at once, you're not going to achieve any one of those. And if you focused on one at a time, you can still do all of them. And if you did one at a time, you could probably achieve all four before you would get them, like, simultaneously together, you know what I mean?

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and I think we'll talk about, like, there's ways to differentiate that level of work, right? Like, there's ways to do… to have some things be more maintenance.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And some… so that you can really invest to one horse.

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  Patrick Quinlan: At a time.

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  Sean Dube: Right.

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  Patrick Quinlan: But know that you don't have to feel guilty that the other things aren't being

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  Patrick Quinlan: Dealt with, or whatever.

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  Sean Dube: Right.

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  Sean Dube: I think it's worth kind of thinking about, too, like, trying to…

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  Sean Dube: financially control your anxiety, right? Where, we're…

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  Sean Dube: yeah, if it's just been too quiet for too long, and there's so many things in the industry that you're not in control of, and I know then I tend to fall back on, well, I can control classes, I can control skill development, and I can control… you know, and it's like… and it's easy to kind of let that stuff…

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  Sean Dube: Snowball.

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  Sean Dube: And it might be slow right now, and I've def- so this is another thing that's happened to me. We're like, alright, cool, I'm gonna get going with some classes, or maybe I do, like, a one-on-one coaching.

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  Sean Dube: And then, like, you know, I've still got, like, my day job and everything else going on, and that's fine until I start getting auditions. And then once you start getting auditions, you're like, this is untenable. You know, especially because, you know, I don't find self-tapes to be particularly quick.

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  Sean Dube: just because of, like, you know, setting up how many times you have to do it, and then, editing and packaging it all together, and rendering it, and uploading it, I just find it takes a lot longer sometimes than…

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  Sean Dube: The… Prep that we used to have when we would go in person and just…

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  Sean Dube: do it one or two times in a room, but… Right.

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  Sean Dube: it's…

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  Sean Dube: I would still take that trade-off, because I feel like I get seen for a lot more stuff, but it's, but that's just one of those things that you don't anticipate when you start, like, saying yes to all these classes, or maybe you're trying to shoot a short film, or do a student film, because the time is…

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  Sean Dube: You have it, right? Or you think you do, and it's like you're… we're all just, like, one change away from not being able to maintain our current workload.

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  Sean Dube: I, I also…

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  Patrick Quinlan: I also think it's a level of trust in yourself, like, I, you know, like, if I'm not…

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  Patrick Quinlan: Trusting in my…

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  Patrick Quinlan: abilities, because I'm feeling rusty, or because I'm feeling like I haven't done enough, like, I jump into things as if they're… those things are gonna give me…

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  Patrick Quinlan: the magic recipe to… to… to just start booking tomorrow, right? Like, it's gonna change… it's like, none of these… there's so many things that are good for your career, but they're not game changers for your… they're just… because that doesn't exist in a… in a… in most instances.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah. I mean, I, I… Two things…

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  Patrick Quinlan: come to mind. One, I had an audition this past weekend, or at the end of last week, and it was, I think, like.

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  Patrick Quinlan: a little over 48 hours to turn it around, or maybe it was, like, you know…

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  Patrick Quinlan: it wasn't quite 72 hours, I feel like, but it was… so it was like, I had 2 nights, and then if I was desperate, I could have used the half morning before the tape was due, I suppose.

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  Patrick Quinlan: A few years ago, before having a kid, and being a dad, and, like, really being stretched in a different way,

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  Patrick Quinlan: I… I… that type of audition might have tempted me to, like.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Book an hour with a coach of mine, or book an hour with two different coaches of mine, and spend that money, and spend that time, and really work it, and really…

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  Patrick Quinlan: Work the audition hard.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And I didn't have the luxury of the time, in this instance, that I was just like, you know what, I'll take 24 hours to work it, and think about it, and run the lines, and…

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  Patrick Quinlan: And, sort of, workshop what I want to do, and then I'll…

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  Patrick Quinlan: do it the next night with my wife as the reader, and… and I'll turn it in, and, you know, two takes, and it was it, like…

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  Patrick Quinlan: I… could it have been better? Maybe, but at that point, it's, like, pretty marginal. Like, I didn't… I wasn't…

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  Patrick Quinlan: I didn't have the luxury of…

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  Patrick Quinlan: to, like, indulge my anxiety, to be like, I need to, I need to book this, because I need this job. It was like, no, this job would be great.

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  Patrick Quinlan: but I… there's 5 other things to do, and and it was freeing, in a way, you know?

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  Patrick Quinlan: And I… there's an… there's an actor in my circles right now who's…

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  Patrick Quinlan: I think he's just had a slow, he's felt slow, like, his career's not moving the way he's wanted, he's had some…

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  Patrick Quinlan: Pops and some other things, and it's not going quite in the direction that he wants it to be, so he changed… he mixed things up, and now he's, like, in a bunch of classes, and he's working on…

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  Patrick Quinlan: He's challenging himself in all these new ways, which…

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  Patrick Quinlan: is, like, amazing, and also part of me is, like.

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  Patrick Quinlan: -Oh, dude, like, I don't know, you might… you might burn out, you might overthink, over-torque something that didn't need to be messed with in the first place.

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  Sean Dube: Yeah, and they can take a while to come back to center. Yeah. I think it's…

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  Sean Dube: So, at what point do you think it is…

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  Sean Dube: an action bias versus, like, strategic execution. Because there… you don't want to do nothing.

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  Sean Dube: Right? Right. Either.

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  Sean Dube: So, I think that's something that I find that I'm trying to balance quite often, is like.

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  Sean Dube: I find now that as my time is less, I'm much more strategic, right, in my approach to things.

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  Sean Dube: and… You… kind of like what you're talking about with…

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  Sean Dube: your, with your audition experience, it kind of is…

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  Sean Dube: that, like, alright, let me figure out the way that I'm able to do this. And I find that there's a lot of freedom in that, too, instead of the way that I want to do it. And… because there's… it kind of helps remove some of the expectation, in a way.

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  Sean Dube: And not, and not in a… not in a bad way, but it's just the, like…

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  Sean Dube: I don't know, there is a freedom in, like, let me just do my best, and get that out there, because so often, too, it's like, if you're right for the role, you're gonna book it regardless of how good of your performance is.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Like… Right.

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  Sean Dube: That's just how it… it goes.

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  Sean Dube: Right?

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  Patrick Quinlan: Well, and like, you know, if you're doing the work, generally, and over a long period of time, like.

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  Patrick Quinlan: the work's gonna…

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  Patrick Quinlan: There's gonna be, like, a group of actors near the top that are just kind of doing that work, and then.

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  Sean Dube: They're good.

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  Patrick Quinlan: And then from there, they're picking the one that really feels right for the part, right? Or right to tell the story. And that's the thing you have no control over. So it's like…

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  Patrick Quinlan: I mean, I think it's, you know, I think if an actor was just, like, if someone just woke up tomorrow and wanted to become an actor and really get into it, then it's like, yeah, you've gotta, like, really study and, like, dive in and, like, you know, doing a class that's…

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  Patrick Quinlan: That asks you to have rehearsals all the time in between sessions.

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  Patrick Quinlan: 3 to 4 hours long, and studying the plays, like, that stuff would be good, but if you're… if you've been out here for a while, or you've been going after it for a while, and… and you're honest with yourself in that, you know, and you're getting good feedback, and people are responding to you, you know, I think…

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  Patrick Quinlan: there's not… there's not, like, another little piece. It's like…

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  Patrick Quinlan: You just… you keep going to the gym.

  00:15:39:17 - 00:15:43:07

  Patrick Quinlan: And you keep shooting, shooting hoops,

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  Patrick Quinlan: Because, like, I don't know where that metaphor's going, but, like, you know, Kobe Bryant has to practice free throws, Michael Jordan had to practice, like, they still have to do it.

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  Patrick Quinlan: But, like, the third string, I…

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  Patrick Quinlan: you're in the NBA. Getting to the top… bottom of the NBA, the top of the NBA, that's… Probably…

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  Patrick Quinlan: within your… It's either gonna happen, or you never had a chance, I don't know.

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  Sean Dube: Yes.

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  Patrick Quinlan: That got me way off topic, I think, but…

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  Sean Dube: No, but you're… it's kind of the same, like…

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  Sean Dube: Yes. It's like your baseline talent is there. That's not what you're developing at this point.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Right, and like, yeah.

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  Sean Dube: And it's like, a lot of it is just staying sharp.

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  Sean Dube: Right? But that's the difference, I think, is it's like, at what point are you going beyond what's necessary to just, like, stay flexible and engaged with your craft? And at what point is it starting, like, oh, you might be trying to fill a hole here, and that's not the… you're not addressing the problem.

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  Sean Dube: Which might be something else in your life, and not necessarily, you know, what's happening.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Sure, yeah, I mean… I mean, you know, the idea of the action bias our brains…

  00:16:59:19 - 00:17:07:06

  Patrick Quinlan: are just… our brains are sort of designed to keep us feeling safe, right? And so if we've accumulated a habit of…

  00:17:07:10 - 00:17:12:07

  Patrick Quinlan: I feel good when I hit purchase on Amazon at 11 o'clock at night.

  00:17:12:15 - 00:17:18:09

  Patrick Quinlan: Our brain is getting used to that, and then it's like, oh yeah, this purchase for this,

  00:17:18:17 - 00:17:28:05

  Patrick Quinlan: Instagram for Actors looks good, and this purchase for how to write the perfect email looks good, and oh, I do need to practice a dialect for New Orleans, like, it all just…

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  Sean Dube: Yeah, yeah.

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  Patrick Quinlan: feels like…

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  Sean Dube: Work's moving to Atlanta. Yeah, right.

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  Patrick Quinlan: That all sounds fun and interesting, and it would be cool, but if you're just clicking purchase and never opening it, or setting the time aside, then it is just noise to sort of…

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  Patrick Quinlan: Calm the nerves of, like, I can't control anything, you know?

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  Sean Dube: Right.

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  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

  00:17:54:16 - 00:18:02:12

  Patrick Quinlan: But it's… And, and… And the world around us has morphed to, like, use that, too, right?

  00:18:02:12 - 00:18:03:02

  Sean Dube: Yes.

  00:18:03:02 - 00:18:03:20

  Patrick Quinlan: Like…

  00:18:03:20 - 00:18:04:23

  Sean Dube: But, you know, they, like, weaponized.

  00:18:04:23 - 00:18:07:05

  Patrick Quinlan: Every app is to keep your attention.

  00:18:07:16 - 00:18:08:02

  Sean Dube: Yes.

  00:18:08:02 - 00:18:09:14

  Patrick Quinlan: And so…

  00:18:10:03 - 00:18:20:08

  Patrick Quinlan: you know, I think I have to remind myself, like, is this a thing that's just trying to get my attention, or is this a thing that I can intentionally use, you know?

  00:18:21:24 - 00:18:29:16

  Sean Dube: Yeah, I think that's a good way, too, to think about a lot of the… You know, classes, coaches…

  00:18:30:07 - 00:18:35:22

  Sean Dube: Career advice that you'd buy online, or that gets… Marketed to us.

  00:18:36:10 - 00:18:44:12

  Sean Dube: Is it… it kind of is that. Is it, like, is it for your attention, or is it intentional in use?

  00:18:45:17 - 00:18:50:08

  Sean Dube: And I think it comes from… Before you buy things.

  00:18:50:21 - 00:19:00:24

  Sean Dube: I like to ponder on it for a long time, right? And I tend to be like, alright, I would mind getting into a class, but there's a reason for it. It's like, maybe I'm feeling…

  00:19:01:05 - 00:19:03:14

  Sean Dube: Less flexible.

  00:19:03:23 - 00:19:20:10

  Sean Dube: or it's taking more effort to get the ball rolling, right, than it used to, because I'm just not doing it as often, right? Like that… so I tend to look for, like, what are the underlying causes that are leading you to seek this thing, rather than…

  00:19:22:10 - 00:19:36:16

  Sean Dube: hey, that could solve my problem, let me try it. Right? Like, that's, I think, not… you want to come at it from the other way, like, try to identify what the problem is, and then seek a solution. Don't buy a solution before you have… before you understand the problem.

  00:19:37:08 - 00:19:42:09

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and frankly, like, you know, a lot of it can be a form of procrastination.

  00:19:42:18 - 00:19:53:13

  Patrick Quinlan: Yes. And just like, oh, yeah, I should sign up for text analysis. Like, text analysis in and of itself is great. Yes. But do you really need a text analysis class at this…

  00:19:53:21 - 00:20:08:02

  Patrick Quinlan: moment in your career, or at this season, like, if it's September tomorrow, like, come, right, and there's 3 more months of, like, auditions ramping up until…

  00:20:08:06 - 00:20:11:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Until Thanksgiving, pretty much, and then.

  00:20:11:17 - 00:20:14:23

  Patrick Quinlan: a little, a few peppered until the new year.

  00:20:15:02 - 00:20:19:17

  Patrick Quinlan: But… This might not be the time to do that text analysis class, right?

  00:20:19:21 - 00:20:20:15

  Sean Dube: But…

  00:20:20:15 - 00:20:28:00

  Patrick Quinlan: But like you said, like, the trigger is I want to take this class, and what's the thing that I'm hoping this new action would take? And it's like, well…

  00:20:28:18 - 00:20:30:10

  Patrick Quinlan: It could just be that I…

  00:20:30:16 - 00:20:37:13

  Patrick Quinlan: I want to be productive, or what am I trying to avoid? And maybe it's avoiding doing the class you're already in.

  00:20:37:16 - 00:20:38:11

  Patrick Quinlan: Like, maybe…

  00:20:38:11 - 00:20:39:03

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:20:39:08 - 00:20:43:12

  Patrick Quinlan: Avoiding writing the thing that… the short film idea in your head.

  00:20:43:21 - 00:20:46:07

  Patrick Quinlan: You know, the uncomfortable stuff.

  00:20:47:09 - 00:20:48:01

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:20:48:04 - 00:20:59:12

  Sean Dube: I think there's something else that I've definitely observed in other actors, and I… I haven't experienced this, but maybe you either have, or you've also seen other people, is there are

  00:21:00:07 - 00:21:02:14

  Sean Dube: Class can be a very welcoming space.

  00:21:02:18 - 00:21:03:12

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:21:04:10 - 00:21:07:12

  Sean Dube: And I've seen actors kind of, like.

  00:21:07:16 - 00:21:11:16

  Sean Dube: Get stuck in class, and then not pursue the career.

  00:21:12:13 - 00:21:16:14

  Sean Dube: Which, like, could be fine if they're just wanting it to be a hobby.

  00:21:16:19 - 00:21:23:14

  Sean Dube: And maybe that's, like, conversation they need to have with themselves, but I do also think that sometimes, like.

  00:21:24:15 - 00:21:27:04

  Sean Dube: Seeking classes and seeking approval.

  00:21:28:02 - 00:21:45:07

  Sean Dube: comes more easily in class than it does, like, from the industry, which gives you no approval. Yeah. And approval is, like, silence or another opportunity. You know, it's like, if you don't hear anything, that's good. It's almost like medical, like, feedback, you know, and…

  00:21:45:15 - 00:21:53:21

  Sean Dube: it's, but I've definitely seen actors before, though, like, just go from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing, and they're like, everybody says I'm great, like.

  00:21:54:01 - 00:21:55:16

  Sean Dube: But you're not trying to work.

  00:21:55:22 - 00:22:15:14

  Sean Dube: You know, like, you're not even… you're not… you're not doing anything outside of those bubbles to try to, like, generate work, or find representation, or do anything that's gonna, like… you need to go get uncomfortable in a social setting. You need to go do… like, the classes you're taking aren't gonna help you achieve what you're trying to do.

  00:22:17:06 - 00:22:18:22

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, definitely, I mean, I think…

  00:22:19:20 - 00:22:26:03

  Patrick Quinlan: We want validation, and we want to be challenged, and you don't…

  00:22:26:07 - 00:22:32:21

  Patrick Quinlan: You can get challenged in auditions, but you don't get feedback, so you don't even know if you met the challenge, right? So, like…

  00:22:33:07 - 00:22:39:02

  Patrick Quinlan: you… You… Unless you have a really good compass, you don't know where…

  00:22:39:07 - 00:22:45:05

  Patrick Quinlan: where to go. So, class is, like, a great place. And if you have a community of artists and everything, I think…

  00:22:45:14 - 00:22:52:01

  Patrick Quinlan: And you don't want to move on, even if you've been there for a while, it's like, well, how can you mix it up still? You know, because…

  00:22:52:09 - 00:22:55:02

  Patrick Quinlan: I think you have to… be…

  00:22:55:21 - 00:23:02:03

  Patrick Quinlan: asking yourself what you're getting out of it every time you show up, right? And it can be different things, but…

  00:23:02:14 - 00:23:11:06

  Patrick Quinlan: You know, if it's just that you're, like, choosing a scene, and then, like, in the moment with your partner, and kind of just doing scenes you enjoy.

  00:23:11:13 - 00:23:25:14

  Patrick Quinlan: over and over and over again, you're not really challenging yourself anymore. Like, we've talked about going to the gym, just, like, bicep curls are fun. I think those, like, those are the most fun thing to do. You can also just…

  00:23:26:11 - 00:23:33:07

  Patrick Quinlan: never… Gain any muscle mass from doing them if you're just, like, not really challenging yourself, you know?

  00:23:33:14 - 00:23:38:16

  Patrick Quinlan: And there's different variations, and you can really nerd… and so if you can get…

  00:23:39:12 - 00:23:43:03

  Patrick Quinlan: Into the minutiae of it, like, you can get something out of it.

  00:23:43:11 - 00:23:58:14

  Patrick Quinlan: But chances are, if that's all you're doing is just showing up to the class one day, and you're not doing the other stuff, like sending outreach emails, and following people on Instagram, and going to… supporting your friends' projects, or trying to learn to produce something, like…

  00:23:58:18 - 00:24:02:15

  Patrick Quinlan: You're not gonna get very far.

  00:24:02:22 - 00:24:04:21

  Patrick Quinlan: In just that alone.

  00:24:05:14 - 00:24:06:05

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:24:06:22 - 00:24:10:23

  Sean Dube: It could be, like, a… It can be a distraction, it can become a distraction.

  00:24:11:04 - 00:24:11:19

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

  00:24:11:19 - 00:24:13:11

  Sean Dube: From the other things.

  00:24:13:15 - 00:24:21:10

  Sean Dube: Because then you still feel like you're doing something, right? Like, I think… and I'm, like, fully projecting here, but that's, like…

  00:24:22:10 - 00:24:24:10

  Sean Dube: Doing something that's comfortable.

  00:24:25:03 - 00:24:29:09

  Sean Dube: Regularly gives you the illusion of action.

  00:24:29:16 - 00:24:30:04

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:24:30:04 - 00:24:30:19

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

  00:24:30:19 - 00:24:35:02

  Sean Dube: And, like, you need to measure your discomfort, right? That's the thing you need to be seeking.

  00:24:37:08 - 00:24:40:23

  Patrick Quinlan: Totally, and like… I think, also.

  00:24:41:07 - 00:24:44:22

  Patrick Quinlan: There's classes out there, we've talked about this in other episodes, but, like.

  00:24:45:01 - 00:24:49:02

  Patrick Quinlan: they can get a little Kool-Aid-y, and they can get a little, like…

  00:24:49:13 - 00:24:59:13

  Patrick Quinlan: And there's, like, studios that are rivals of each other because they broke off, and splinter-grouped, and whatever, and there's drama.

  00:24:59:18 - 00:25:00:24

  Patrick Quinlan: And…

  00:25:01:02 - 00:25:12:15

  Patrick Quinlan: And again, validation, and maybe you have that acting coach, and you want that person's validation, and if that's what you're going for, you're getting sucked into the… to the community that is kind of like.

  00:25:15:18 - 00:25:26:13

  Patrick Quinlan: Just staring at their navel, loving all the good work they do in class, and it's like, it doesn't matter unless it translates to somewhere else, and that's gonna be…

  00:25:27:00 - 00:25:30:18

  Patrick Quinlan: I mean, ultimately, I think that's what everyone's goal is.

  00:25:30:22 - 00:25:36:07

  Patrick Quinlan: And if it's not, then, like, if it's not your goal, then go do theater. Like, go…

  00:25:36:15 - 00:25:40:06

  Patrick Quinlan: Go become… go do a community theater, any level of theater.

  00:25:40:06 - 00:25:41:15

  Sean Dube: Go volunteer, yeah.

  00:25:41:15 - 00:25:53:21

  Patrick Quinlan: theater. Go, yeah, do the Storyteller's Workshop through SAG. Like, there's so many ways to have your art still give something to people out, like, in a room that you don't have to pay for.

  00:25:54:00 - 00:25:56:01

  Sean Dube: Right, outside of commerce, right.

  00:25:56:01 - 00:25:56:17

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

  00:25:56:21 - 00:26:00:00

  Patrick Quinlan: And you don't have to be paid for, by any means, but, like, you know.

  00:26:00:03 - 00:26:02:03

  Patrick Quinlan: I think there's…

  00:26:02:07 - 00:26:10:13

  Patrick Quinlan: it's like, yeah, there's probably somewhere else you could be doing that, too, and it's… and it'll be scary at first, but… Sure.

  00:26:10:20 - 00:26:13:20

  Patrick Quinlan: Breaking of a habit is gonna be… gonna feel…

  00:26:14:04 - 00:26:16:22

  Patrick Quinlan: Make you feel insecure and vulnerable and whatever.

  00:26:17:09 - 00:26:21:01

  Sean Dube: Yeah, you just need to do the new habit long enough to forget the old habit.

  00:26:21:01 - 00:26:28:16

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, totally. And it's not a… and you don't have to judge one habit versus the other. It's just like, this one's serving me, this one's not. It's almost like…

  00:26:29:07 - 00:26:31:06

  Patrick Quinlan: You know.

  00:26:31:14 - 00:26:41:23

  Patrick Quinlan: I started doing this lately, I forget where I picked it up, but I just sort of like narrating to myself, like, if I really don't want to write this email, it's like, hmm, Patrick's avoiding writing this email. And it's just like.

  00:26:42:02 - 00:26:43:10

  Patrick Quinlan: Well, that's dumb.

  00:26:43:18 - 00:26:44:09

  Sean Dube: Yeah, sure.

  00:26:45:05 - 00:26:51:22

  Patrick Quinlan: It's totally… it shouldn't take this long, you know? Yeah. Just type it and hit send doofus.

  00:26:52:00 - 00:27:02:19

  Sean Dube: I do a similar thing, and I think that happens, sometimes when you've, like, you've written the email, and you've, like, proofed it over, and that is an important step, so do proofread.

  00:27:02:22 - 00:27:16:05

  Sean Dube: But then you're like, do I send it? Do I not send it? When do I send it? Just send it, right? And I've definitely gotten better at the, like, well, that's… now it's done. I don't have to think about it anymore. It's, like, off my plate.

  00:27:16:09 - 00:27:31:14

  Sean Dube: And it's just, like, send it into the ether, and, like, maybe you hear back, maybe you don't, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you took action, and you, like, overcame that discomfort, or you lived in that discomfort, right? But I feel like almost every email you send is a little bit of, like.

  00:27:32:06 - 00:27:34:03

  Sean Dube: What's, what's gonna happen? Is it…

  00:27:34:03 - 00:27:34:14

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

  00:27:34:14 - 00:27:37:00

  Sean Dube: You know, but just… Said it.

  00:27:37:19 - 00:27:38:16

  Sean Dube: Just said it.

  00:27:39:01 - 00:27:53:03

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and get in the habit of sending it more and more, sending all of those. I mean, just to close the loop on that acting class thing, you know, this is something I've thought about, because, well, I took a break from my acting class, and then I returned recently, and…

  00:27:53:09 - 00:27:54:06

  Patrick Quinlan: You know.

  00:27:54:17 - 00:28:00:24

  Patrick Quinlan: It was a long break, and I came back, and I was like, I hadn't missed a day. It was really great. It's a really lovely community.

  00:28:01:03 - 00:28:01:21

  Patrick Quinlan: But…

  00:28:02:07 - 00:28:10:00

  Patrick Quinlan: And I'm already feeling, like, a part of it again, and comfortable. I'm like, oh, but there are a couple other classes I have in mind, and would I…

  00:28:10:03 - 00:28:20:19

  Patrick Quinlan: Would I do two at a time? That doesn't seem feasible, so maybe I have to take another break and go try a class out, and then come… and this can always be, like, a home base sort of reunion place.

  00:28:20:23 - 00:28:24:19

  Patrick Quinlan: Because I do think… For someone who's been

  00:28:25:03 - 00:28:30:03

  Patrick Quinlan: For an actor, maybe, who's been in class for a long time at a studio, and re… and…

  00:28:30:16 - 00:28:35:22

  Patrick Quinlan: There's no… like, what would be the big deal to… go…

  00:28:36:01 - 00:28:47:20

  Patrick Quinlan: to another studio for 3 months, and then a different studio for 3 months, and then another for 3 months, and then return, you know? Like, there's 9 months where you're just getting some new input, new ideas, new people.

  00:28:48:04 - 00:28:51:15

  Patrick Quinlan: You're challenging yourself just by being in a different setting.

  00:28:52:00 - 00:28:59:02

  Patrick Quinlan: And then, and now you've, you know, experienced all these things, maybe you don't know what you learn along the way, so…

  00:28:59:20 - 00:29:06:11

  Patrick Quinlan: But I… but, like, I know a few actors who would also, like, schedule their, like, have…

  00:29:06:14 - 00:29:10:15

  Patrick Quinlan: classes in a week at different studios, and I think that would be…

  00:29:10:15 - 00:29:11:02

  Sean Dube: Mush.

  00:29:11:02 - 00:29:12:10

  Patrick Quinlan: a different.

  00:29:12:10 - 00:29:13:06

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:29:13:06 - 00:29:14:00

  Patrick Quinlan: That's…

  00:29:14:00 - 00:29:16:00

  Sean Dube: That's too much.

  00:29:16:06 - 00:29:19:09

  Sean Dube: I, I'm a perpetual like.

  00:29:19:16 - 00:29:21:04

  Sean Dube: class hopper.

  00:29:21:07 - 00:29:30:18

  Sean Dube: Right, and it's not that I haven't, like, found a group that I like or not, it's just I think I see more value in learning from different people.

  00:29:31:00 - 00:29:35:07

  Sean Dube: Because every time, you know, it's like… we are…

  00:29:35:24 - 00:29:39:22

  Sean Dube: Trying to understand an object you can't, like, see.

  00:29:40:00 - 00:29:40:13

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:29:41:02 - 00:29:43:21

  Sean Dube: So you have to rely on someone else's description.

  00:29:43:24 - 00:29:48:18

  Sean Dube: And the more diff… the more descriptions you get, the better your understanding is of this object.

  00:29:48:21 - 00:29:51:01

  Sean Dube: is kind of how I feel about it.

  00:29:51:05 - 00:30:00:03

  Sean Dube: And… And then ultimately, you know, Mastery comes from, like, Trying to teach.

  00:30:00:12 - 00:30:17:23

  Sean Dube: Right? If you can teach someone something, then you have, like, you can… that's the only way to really develop a mastery of it. And I find that sometimes with directing, especially, like, with younger actors, you get that opportunity, and you just learn things faster.

  00:30:18:09 - 00:30:19:15

  Sean Dube: about acting

  00:30:19:19 - 00:30:29:08

  Sean Dube: where… in a practical sense, because you're just… you're observing it from the outside, right? And I do think this happens also in class, although hopefully in class you're… you're,

  00:30:29:14 - 00:30:39:15

  Sean Dube: you're not giving each other feedback, and it should all come from, like, one person who's, like, guiding the class. But you do start to learn more from watching.

  00:30:39:22 - 00:30:46:21

  Sean Dube: your students and, like, watching your peers and seeing the feedback that they get, right? And, like…

  00:30:47:04 - 00:30:48:15

  Sean Dube: At a certain point.

  00:30:48:18 - 00:30:58:08

  Sean Dube: I feel like that becomes more valuable, almost, where you're, like, trying to diagnose, like, oh, they're missing this, and then you hear the teacher be like, hey, you're missing that, and you're like.

  00:30:58:13 - 00:31:04:06

  Sean Dube: Alright, cool, so I'm on… I think I'm figuring this out. But that's also, like, a…

  00:31:04:10 - 00:31:11:11

  Sean Dube: Like, to me, that's also a sign where it's like, you probably don't need as much class as you're doing, or…

  00:31:11:18 - 00:31:16:00

  Sean Dube: You can think about finding another spot where maybe they approach things a little bit differently.

  00:31:17:03 - 00:31:30:04

  Sean Dube: Or, like, I've tried things where they have a completely different, like, pedagogy, or a different approach than what I was taught, or what I believe, right? Just to, like, just to see what's… what's this thing about. And so…

  00:31:30:04 - 00:31:37:16

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, I mean, I think another studio, it's like, there's offering a teacher studio, but it also brings in a different community of people, so you're gonna learn.

  00:31:37:16 - 00:31:38:09

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:31:38:09 - 00:31:39:08

  Patrick Quinlan: from other,

  00:31:39:08 - 00:31:41:03

  Sean Dube: Different perspectives, yeah.

  00:31:41:14 - 00:31:43:06

  Patrick Quinlan: There's, there's a lot of,

  00:31:43:09 - 00:31:53:07

  Patrick Quinlan: I feel like I've noticed, like, a couple acting studios popping off on Instagram, and it's because, like, a celebrity said something nice about them, and now all of a sudden they have an Instagram account, and you're like…

  00:31:53:11 - 00:32:02:08

  Patrick Quinlan: getting the ads, and you're like, oh, that looks cool, because this person's talking about it. This famous person's talking about it, like, that sounds cool, and it's like.

  00:32:02:09 - 00:32:13:20

  Patrick Quinlan: okay, that's the first level, go do the research, find out about that person, like, really go audit a class. We have a whole episode about picking a class that I think still applies here, but…

  00:32:13:20 - 00:32:14:12

  Sean Dube: Yes.

  00:32:14:12 - 00:32:18:03

  Patrick Quinlan: If we're talking about, like… Yeah, the optimization of…

  00:32:19:00 - 00:32:28:19

  Patrick Quinlan: of your time, and yeah, I think you're onto something there. It's like, if you can break it down, what you're wanting out of those classes, you might not need the class, necessarily.

  00:32:29:02 - 00:32:29:19

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:32:30:22 - 00:32:33:08

  Sean Dube: Yeah, you start to… you start to…

  00:32:34:08 - 00:32:39:06

  Sean Dube: To me, that's an indication that it's like, okay, it's maybe time to… To boogie.

  00:32:40:02 - 00:32:44:11

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, or to apply that, and to be like, you know what, I'm taking a break from class, and now I'm gonna do…

  00:32:44:11 - 00:32:45:13

  Sean Dube: Well, yeah.

  00:32:45:13 - 00:32:46:19

  Patrick Quinlan: Do the work and make something.

  00:32:46:19 - 00:32:59:18

  Sean Dube: go write, yeah, make something, or find another way to… and making something might not be writing, it might not be directing, right? It might be, like, partnering with someone where you're developing a script.

  00:33:00:01 - 00:33:11:00

  Sean Dube: Right? Or, like, meeting other filmmakers, even if you're gonna be the actor, and you're like, hey, I've got some ideas… you're still gonna have ideas about the story, right? You're gonna have ideas about the character.

  00:33:11:00 - 00:33:29:09

  Sean Dube: And that's stuff where you can have conversations with the writer to be like, hey, this is what I'm feeling, this is what's interesting, this is what's going on in my life. And, like, is this useful for you? And then you'll get the script, and sometimes it isn't, sometimes it isn't, depending on what ultimately fits the story that they are trying to tell, or that is coming through them.

  00:33:29:10 - 00:33:39:00

  Sean Dube: But, you know, you can be a collaborator creatively and help develop a project from an acting position. You still… you function like a producer, and you're trying to…

  00:33:39:06 - 00:33:43:22

  Sean Dube: get that thing made. But, so, my point there is just the, you know.

  00:33:44:01 - 00:33:48:21

  Sean Dube: You might still be operating from the acting seat. It doesn't necessarily mean writing or directing.

  00:33:49:15 - 00:34:00:23

  Sean Dube: But you should find the area that you're, like, that you are comfortable, but developing your own project, or developing a solo show, or…

  00:34:01:05 - 00:34:15:02

  Sean Dube: whatever, shooting stuff on your phone for social media, like, there's so much value in the creation of it outside of class, right? And I think that, similar to exercise.

  00:34:15:14 - 00:34:16:14

  Sean Dube: Where…

  00:34:16:19 - 00:34:32:15

  Sean Dube: all the adaptation happens outside of the gym, right? I think similar things, in my experience, have happened in acting, where it's like, if you're constantly just pushing and getting uncomfortable and pushing and getting uncomfortable, and you kind of get to this point where you're, like, almost a little numb, if you take a break.

  00:34:32:20 - 00:34:45:11

  Sean Dube: Then you have all of this, like, recovery, where you start to figure stuff out, because now you have time to solve… like, to… to think about the… what's happened, or… or, like, some of the…

  00:34:45:21 - 00:34:54:12

  Sean Dube: the skills you've developed are now starting to permeate fully, and you truly understand them. And then when you go back to class in a couple months, it's like…

  00:34:54:22 - 00:35:12:05

  Sean Dube: really easy, all of a sudden, or there's much more versatility, or maybe something that was emotionally inaccessible is now more readily available, right? And there's some things that I've found by taking a break, sometimes you actually improve.

  00:35:13:16 - 00:35:15:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and like…

  00:35:15:04 - 00:35:21:12

  Patrick Quinlan: You also save some money in that regard, and like, all of these things, it's like, you can improve

  00:35:21:16 - 00:35:25:13

  Patrick Quinlan: And work on your craft and your acting without spending all the money.

  00:35:25:22 - 00:35:26:10

  Sean Dube: Yep.

  00:35:26:15 - 00:35:30:21

  Patrick Quinlan: They… It's… it's a little harder, or it… or…

  00:35:31:04 - 00:35:41:13

  Patrick Quinlan: in some ways, or not necessarily harder, but, like, you do have to take a little more ownership then, I think, you know? Like, I think the thing about class, the thing about workshops and coaches is, like.

  00:35:41:22 - 00:35:52:04

  Patrick Quinlan: there's kind of a… there's a formula already laid out, or there's a format already laid out, but… but like… like we said on a Making Your Own Work episode, like…

  00:35:52:23 - 00:35:56:23

  Patrick Quinlan: You, instead of just going to the, like, do more, buy more.

  00:35:57:13 - 00:36:01:08

  Patrick Quinlan: I gotta do the most to be the best, like…

  00:36:01:23 - 00:36:07:15

  Patrick Quinlan: I'm thinking of Dennis Rodman, like, running in combat boots on an inclined treadmill, which…

  00:36:08:06 - 00:36:11:05

  Patrick Quinlan: is a way to do it. But…

  00:36:11:05 - 00:36:11:18

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:36:12:12 - 00:36:18:01

  Patrick Quinlan: it, you know, it only… it doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't work for most people, probably. And so, like…

  00:36:19:08 - 00:36:22:08

  Patrick Quinlan: Having a… finding a space where you can…

  00:36:22:13 - 00:36:35:01

  Patrick Quinlan: present monologues to a friend, or to find a Google Meet or a Zoom and just, like, read scenes and plays together. All of that can be a break, and still be, like, filling the cup, you know?

  00:36:35:01 - 00:36:43:08

  Sean Dube: It's so constructive. Yeah, I do think it's worth acknowledging that we're, like, both based in Los Angeles, and we've lived in bigger cities outside of

  00:36:43:11 - 00:36:55:00

  Sean Dube: this, where we've done most of our, like, class stuff, and that's… so it's easy to go find a lot of things, right? It's easy to find a community, it's easier… but I do think the internet has opened up

  00:36:55:18 - 00:36:58:18

  Sean Dube: Like, there's online classes now from pretty much all of these…

  00:36:58:22 - 00:37:05:14

  Sean Dube: places, so regardless of where you are, right, you can find some classes, but I think… even still.

  00:37:06:03 - 00:37:13:02

  Sean Dube: It doesn't have to be… A financial, like, you don't have to… Mortgage a house to…

  00:37:13:02 - 00:37:13:10

  Patrick Quinlan: No.

  00:37:13:10 - 00:37:17:15

  Sean Dube: to pay for the stuff, you can do so many different things, like you're saying, with friends.

  00:37:17:15 - 00:37:23:06

  Patrick Quinlan: You can find writers and directors on Substack, you can find people on Reddit, you can find people…

  00:37:23:13 - 00:37:30:09

  Patrick Quinlan: who… on Facebook groups, but I like the Substack one a lot lately, because people… it's kind of popping off, and people are posting things, but, like.

  00:37:30:12 - 00:37:38:01

  Patrick Quinlan: For $6 a month, you get to read their different essays, and then some of them, some people,

  00:37:38:10 - 00:37:40:09

  Patrick Quinlan: host script reads.

  00:37:40:09 - 00:37:41:10

  Sean Dube: And it's like…

  00:37:41:10 - 00:37:49:13

  Patrick Quinlan: You just show… you just have to show up, and then listen, and join… join in, and, like, do that a little bit. You know, there's…

  00:37:49:18 - 00:37:56:19

  Patrick Quinlan: There's definitely options out there, and you have to get crafty and creative to, like.

  00:37:57:05 - 00:38:03:11

  Patrick Quinlan: If you're outside of the… Like, a metropolitan area, and you need the internet, but…

  00:38:03:15 - 00:38:05:18

  Patrick Quinlan: I mean, all of this kind of speaks to, like.

  00:38:06:21 - 00:38:15:06

  Patrick Quinlan: a fear of not doing enough, right? Or a fear of doing less, right? Do you, which… as…

  00:38:15:09 - 00:38:19:20

  Patrick Quinlan: as a, a… Still feeling like a very new dad.

  00:38:19:20 - 00:38:20:17

  Sean Dube: Yes. Yeah.

  00:38:20:22 - 00:38:24:23

  Patrick Quinlan: It's kind of the constant refrain in my head of just, like.

  00:38:25:07 - 00:38:32:16

  Patrick Quinlan: oh, all these things, I… they're not nearly as important anymore, like, personally, but at the same time feel like…

  00:38:33:03 - 00:38:37:18

  Patrick Quinlan: I'm supposed to feel like they are. Like, I'm still… got some old…

  00:38:38:00 - 00:38:40:11

  Patrick Quinlan: Synapses that are like, hey, remember…

  00:38:40:17 - 00:38:44:22

  Patrick Quinlan: You know, you're not watching enough… you're not researching enough TV, or you're not…

  00:38:44:22 - 00:38:45:13

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:38:45:13 - 00:38:51:13

  Patrick Quinlan: What about that script you said you were gonna write, and like, you know, there, there is that…

  00:38:52:17 - 00:39:01:06

  Patrick Quinlan: there is an anxiety that comes out of, like, what are… what are the things I should be doing that I'm not doing? Because I don't have time, personally, or…

  00:39:01:18 - 00:39:05:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Or, or for whatever reason, they were not doing those things.

  00:39:05:12 - 00:39:11:06

  Sean Dube: Yeah. I think you experience a similar thing when you are doing a lot, and then you start throttling back.

  00:39:11:21 - 00:39:22:10

  Sean Dube: Right? Like, let's say you heard this at… you're hearing this episode, and you're like, alright, I'm in 5 classes right now, and I would like to be in fewer, and I'm paying a lot of money, and…

  00:39:22:13 - 00:39:27:05

  Sean Dube: That's, like, a scary proposition, because you don't want to go backwards.

  00:39:27:20 - 00:39:28:03

  Patrick Quinlan: Right.

  00:39:28:06 - 00:39:30:09

  Sean Dube: And…

  00:39:31:09 - 00:39:40:23

  Sean Dube: it's then, like, well, but if I'm not putting as much effort into this, am I not gonna be as good, or will I not be discovered, or whatever? And I think…

  00:39:42:04 - 00:39:48:17

  Sean Dube: what experience has taught me is that a lot of those concerns, like, you're gonna be fine. If you have that feeling at all.

  00:39:49:16 - 00:39:59:08

  Sean Dube: you're doing way too… like, you are… you are not gonna drop the ball, right? But you can probably get the same results or better with less output.

  00:39:59:24 - 00:40:18:08

  Sean Dube: right, you could save money for something else, whether that's, like, to make your own thing, or just having more time would allow you to write. So, like, there's just… but I… yeah, so I just wanted to bring that fear up, because I've had that in the past. And then now, with, like, what you're saying.

  00:40:18:12 - 00:40:33:06

  Sean Dube: it's like, I have a lot of priorities, or a lot of things I would like to do, but I don't have a lot of time to prioritize them. And, like, how do you then find that balance? And that's something that I'm… I'm still negotiating, and…

  00:40:33:14 - 00:40:42:13

  Sean Dube: It's… it's tough because you don't always have the energy to, like, wake up early and try to read something, or write something, and…

  00:40:42:15 - 00:40:50:13

  Sean Dube: Or stay up late to watch something, or, you know, it's like, I do find that it is more difficult to carve time for all the things, so you just have to, like…

  00:40:50:23 - 00:40:52:10

  Sean Dube: Air out the schedule.

  00:40:52:14 - 00:40:59:04

  Sean Dube: Right? And it's like, let me find a… some kind of rotation where I'm doing these things, and then…

  00:40:59:11 - 00:41:08:18

  Sean Dube: let me just check off the next one, and, like, go back to that, you know, just, like, start cycling through these things. And what I used to cycle through in a day now might take me a week, and that's…

  00:41:09:11 - 00:41:16:02

  Sean Dube: You know, it's like, doing anything is gonna be better than doing nothing, but also, at this point.

  00:41:16:12 - 00:41:18:08

  Sean Dube: I've built so much.

  00:41:20:19 - 00:41:31:13

  Sean Dube: momentum over time, or, like, built so much understanding over time, that it actually takes a lot less stimulus to get the same kind of results you were getting before, has been my experience.

  00:41:32:03 - 00:41:35:16

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, I mean, I think you're also speaking to,

  00:41:36:00 - 00:41:42:01

  Patrick Quinlan: relaxation, right? If we're focused on how little time we have, or how little…

  00:41:42:18 - 00:41:49:04

  Patrick Quinlan: how little inc… like, little control I have over my schedule, or whatever, it's like…

  00:41:49:12 - 00:41:56:07

  Patrick Quinlan: It's hard… it goes against the ability to show up in the pockets that you do have.

  00:41:56:09 - 00:41:57:09

  Sean Dube: And to just…

  00:41:57:09 - 00:42:03:12

  Patrick Quinlan: Just give it your… give it your best, right? Like, and to be that relaxed. I'm actually, like.

  00:42:03:24 - 00:42:08:02

  Patrick Quinlan: reading a book right now called, Unhinged Habits.

  00:42:08:07 - 00:42:13:10

  Patrick Quinlan: Okay. Which, the title is… but it just totally speaks to what you just said. It's…

  00:42:13:18 - 00:42:16:02

  Patrick Quinlan: this guy, Jonathan Goodman, and…

  00:42:16:07 - 00:42:22:10

  Patrick Quinlan: I haven't looked up what his deal is, and it's a fairly new book, like, I think it was published in 2024.

  00:42:22:13 - 00:42:26:22

  Patrick Quinlan: He's definitely speaking to optimization culture in general.

  00:42:27:02 - 00:42:27:23

  Sean Dube: And…

  00:42:27:23 - 00:42:29:04

  Patrick Quinlan: And a few of the…

  00:42:29:14 - 00:42:36:09

  Patrick Quinlan: He's quoted people where you're like, oh yeah, okay, I've seen that Instagram story too, or whatever. But,

  00:42:36:13 - 00:42:44:15

  Patrick Quinlan: He breaks things down to… he's, like, seasons, and he has this con… this framework of, like, 8-4. 8 months on, 4 months off.

  00:42:44:21 - 00:42:47:03

  Patrick Quinlan: And he's like, I'll pick a project…

  00:42:47:11 - 00:42:51:09

  Patrick Quinlan: And it can be 8 months of family, And 4 months off.

  00:42:51:14 - 00:43:00:24

  Patrick Quinlan: But for him, it was more like, 8 months I'm writing a book, 4 months I'm off of that book, so that one goes down, but everything else goes back up.

  00:43:01:05 - 00:43:06:08

  Patrick Quinlan: So, like… But… In those 8 months, you still have…

  00:43:07:01 - 00:43:10:12

  Patrick Quinlan: things that… obligations that you have to do, like, say, exercise.

  00:43:10:20 - 00:43:13:05

  Patrick Quinlan: Family dinners, whatever.

  00:43:13:08 - 00:43:14:11

  Patrick Quinlan: work.

  00:43:14:15 - 00:43:16:11

  Patrick Quinlan: It's just that…

  00:43:16:14 - 00:43:21:05

  Patrick Quinlan: You're not gonna stress about them so much, you're gonna do the maintenance that's needed, that's necessary.

  00:43:21:14 - 00:43:29:09

  Patrick Quinlan: Right? In order to optimize the concentration on that one other thing for that time. And I was like, oh, that's interesting, like…

  00:43:29:09 - 00:43:29:23

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:43:29:23 - 00:43:37:06

  Patrick Quinlan: it's September, there's 4 months left of the year, I almost want to inverse it and be like, what could I do for 4 months? What's one thing I could do for 4 months that I could…

  00:43:37:11 - 00:43:40:15

  Patrick Quinlan: All my free time would kind of go to that.

  00:43:40:24 - 00:43:45:08

  Patrick Quinlan: Sure. And then… let's say it's not acting. Let's say it's…

  00:43:45:13 - 00:44:01:12

  Patrick Quinlan: work or something, of just, like, maybe I'm gonna get a… I'd get a bonus or something if I, like, worked my ass off for the next 4 months. It's like, what obligations do my… does my family really need, or my friends really need in that time? And then, what do I need for myself? And then, like.

  00:44:01:20 - 00:44:13:04

  Patrick Quinlan: everything, and even if acting, it's like, maybe that's just sending out emails and telling people what I'm up to, and that's, like, the maintenance of it. And everything else is, like, this project, or, say, writing a script, or…

  00:44:13:15 - 00:44:17:20

  Patrick Quinlan: Or whatever. It makes you think of, well, what would you dial down? What would you pare back?

  00:44:18:10 - 00:44:18:24

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:44:18:24 - 00:44:21:17

  Patrick Quinlan: Because that's really kind of the only way we can, like…

  00:44:22:06 - 00:44:23:14

  Patrick Quinlan: to have control over at them.

  00:44:23:19 - 00:44:27:12

  Patrick Quinlan: what we wanna… sort of the output we wanna have, you know? Like…

  00:44:27:22 - 00:44:28:07

  Sean Dube: Yes.

  00:44:28:07 - 00:44:31:04

  Patrick Quinlan: If we're trying to do too much, we're not getting anywhere.

  00:44:31:14 - 00:44:35:13

  Sean Dube: Yeah, that makes sense, and it's… yeah, you're shifting ratios, right? You don't…

  00:44:35:13 - 00:44:36:03

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah.

  00:44:36:08 - 00:44:37:04

  Sean Dube: There's very few things.

  00:44:37:04 - 00:44:38:06

  Patrick Quinlan: Still doing everything.

  00:44:38:06 - 00:44:43:20

  Sean Dube: Yeah, there are very few things you move away from, but, I mean, maybe there are a few things that you can…

  00:44:43:24 - 00:44:48:02

  Sean Dube: That you can cut, but… For the most part, you're shifting ratios.

  00:44:48:10 - 00:44:49:05

  Sean Dube: symptomatic.

  00:44:49:05 - 00:44:52:11

  Patrick Quinlan: anxiety away, and being like, I give myself permission to not worry about that.

  00:44:52:11 - 00:44:53:06

  Sean Dube: Yes.

  00:44:53:06 - 00:45:00:13

  Patrick Quinlan: I'm not worried about keeping up with TV, or I'm not worried about, like, casting director workshops for the next 4 months, I'm not worried about my…

  00:45:00:19 - 00:45:04:24

  Patrick Quinlan: My short film, and then my writing on my free time, you know?

  00:45:05:11 - 00:45:06:04

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:45:06:12 - 00:45:17:04

  Sean Dube: So if you're an actor, again, going back to that theoretical actor that's taking 5 classes, because they definitely don't exist, right? And they're trying to throttle back, and it's like, alright, so…

  00:45:17:13 - 00:45:19:11

  Sean Dube: What do you do with that time?

  00:45:19:21 - 00:45:30:03

  Sean Dube: it's, you know, if you… let's say you're younger, like, maybe out of college, and you have the time for this, it's… this is where I would say, like, try to build another skill that's…

  00:45:30:06 - 00:45:34:19

  Sean Dube: that's an interest, right? Like, do something that,

  00:45:35:00 - 00:45:38:11

  Sean Dube: Fills you with life, and makes you… that…

  00:45:38:22 - 00:45:55:08

  Sean Dube: isn't necessarily entertainment-related, because it can be such a grind and such a slog, and if you still want to be doing it at 30 or at 40, you're gonna have to find that balance of, like, alright, what's the part of life that you want to get to? Because if you're going to 5 classes, that is your life.

  00:45:55:11 - 00:46:03:07

  Sean Dube: Right, you don't have anything else going on right now, you are just in acting class. And there's maybe a short period of time where that might be worth it, but

  00:46:03:13 - 00:46:12:18

  Sean Dube: you're gonna get more… your art is gonna get more, out of you having a life, and doing other things. And, you know, when I…

  00:46:13:02 - 00:46:21:01

  Sean Dube: thinking back, even on my own trajectory, I got so much more interesting as a performer when I started

  00:46:21:19 - 00:46:30:07

  Sean Dube: like, living life more, you know? When I, like, met someone, started going out, to things that I was interested in, and, like.

  00:46:30:11 - 00:46:37:23

  Sean Dube: filling up the, the cup, so to speak, right? It's… that's… that's what you should do with your time, is like…

  00:46:38:02 - 00:46:43:21

  Sean Dube: what are those things? And now, so, like, for us as dads, we get a lot of life.

  00:46:44:06 - 00:46:52:24

  Sean Dube: But we now need to cultivate the creation, the output, the… you know, it's like the other side of it, right? So it's like, the ratio has shifted, but…

  00:46:53:06 - 00:46:54:17

  Sean Dube: So I tried to find that balance.

  00:46:54:17 - 00:47:00:04

  Patrick Quinlan: And if I had spent those… I'm a person who did sign up for a bunch of classes…

  00:47:00:06 - 00:47:00:23

  Sean Dube: Same.

  00:47:00:23 - 00:47:05:11

  Patrick Quinlan: who was like, what do you mean, what else am I doing besides acting?

  00:47:05:11 - 00:47:06:07

  Sean Dube: I'm acting.

  00:47:06:07 - 00:47:08:04

  Patrick Quinlan: Reading the great plays.

  00:47:08:05 - 00:47:09:00

  Sean Dube: Yes.

  00:47:09:10 - 00:47:15:13

  Patrick Quinlan: I'm seeing film, I'm reading film history, I'm just… I was just inputting, inputting, inputting, and…

  00:47:16:11 - 00:47:26:06

  Patrick Quinlan: I'm grateful for that. Like, I have… I can pull some really interesting things to talk about when I'm talk… when I'm nerding out in a setting like this… Sure.

  00:47:26:13 - 00:47:30:06

  Patrick Quinlan: TV and film, and occasionally on sets or something, people will…

  00:47:30:09 - 00:47:44:12

  Patrick Quinlan: hear you out, on those topics, but, like, mostly people want to talk about other things that you are doing, and, like, an agent, or a manager, or a producer, they want to know what else do you care about? What are the things that, like.

  00:47:44:13 - 00:47:45:06

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:47:46:02 - 00:47:49:19

  Patrick Quinlan: So, you know, a hobby's a good one, because, like.

  00:47:50:16 - 00:47:53:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Man, I wish I…

  00:47:53:15 - 00:48:05:15

  Patrick Quinlan: practiced playing the guitar 15 years ago, or kept up with voice lessons, or wrote… learned to ride a horse more, right? Like, because then it would be so easy to just pick it up every now and then when the time allows.

  00:48:05:19 - 00:48:06:15

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:48:06:17 - 00:48:11:05

  Patrick Quinlan: You gotta start at zero, most, if you haven't done it in so long.

  00:48:11:20 - 00:48:12:14

  Sean Dube: It's tougher.

  00:48:12:20 - 00:48:15:22

  Patrick Quinlan: But also, like… You know,

  00:48:16:08 - 00:48:26:08

  Patrick Quinlan: As a kid who, like, I studied theater, but I also studied other things, and I've gotten passionate about other things, and I'd just say, like, hobbies, traveling…

  00:48:26:11 - 00:48:27:08

  Patrick Quinlan: Yup.

  00:48:27:15 - 00:48:35:23

  Patrick Quinlan: volunteering? Like, go out. There's so much you can get from the world that will fill…

  00:48:36:06 - 00:48:43:22

  Patrick Quinlan: That will fill the cup, and that is an input that's different than all the acting stuff that we're supposed to be doing.

  00:48:44:01 - 00:48:46:01

  Patrick Quinlan: And that's the stuff that, like…

  00:48:46:21 - 00:48:50:21

  Patrick Quinlan: That's gonna give you that really great take on a character down the road.

  00:48:51:09 - 00:48:53:04

  Sean Dube: Oh, for sure. You're gonna find…

  00:48:53:04 - 00:48:53:20

  Patrick Quinlan: alike.

  00:48:54:03 - 00:49:02:23

  Sean Dube: Or you're gonna work with that one… that person that was, like, a weird character, that you're gonna be like, oh, the way they do things is just so interesting, and that's gonna inform your craft.

  00:49:03:07 - 00:49:03:19

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, I mean…

  00:49:03:19 - 00:49:07:03

  Sean Dube: It's like, that stuff comes up. You just take stuff from life.

  00:49:07:13 - 00:49:09:16

  Patrick Quinlan: I was on set, and

  00:49:10:05 - 00:49:14:23

  Patrick Quinlan: the first, the first AD, she had this, she had a,

  00:49:15:04 - 00:49:27:22

  Patrick Quinlan: a Dodgers hat, or maybe it was a sweatshirt, I forget. But it was… I only knew, because I'm a big… I have gotten into baseball more and more in the last few years, but, like, the Cubs and the Dodgers played in Japan.

  00:49:28:18 - 00:49:32:09

  Patrick Quinlan: there was this artist, Murkami, who made specialty

  00:49:32:12 - 00:49:38:04

  Patrick Quinlan: clothing for that game. So people went to… I was, like, following it, because I was like, how could I…

  00:49:38:08 - 00:49:44:06

  Patrick Quinlan: get it, you know, and it was, like, being resold for way more than people got it for, right?

  00:49:44:08 - 00:49:49:07

  Patrick Quinlan: And I… and she was wearing it on set, and like… I was like, hey!

  00:49:49:14 - 00:49:59:10

  Patrick Quinlan: did you go to Japan for that? And it was like, yeah, and then all of a sudden, we, you know, we were talking baseball and daughter, and it didn't, you know, and I was like, I'm a Cubs fan, that's how I recognized the…

  00:49:59:17 - 00:50:01:22

  Patrick Quinlan: Swag, or whatever, and it's like…

  00:50:02:01 - 00:50:06:24

  Patrick Quinlan: She saw a human, and not the, like, nervous actor that day.

  00:50:06:24 - 00:50:07:09

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:50:07:09 - 00:50:14:07

  Patrick Quinlan: I think… The more you can bring your humanity to every part of your… Acting, the better.

  00:50:14:23 - 00:50:15:20

  Sean Dube: For sure.

  00:50:16:04 - 00:50:17:05

  Sean Dube: So what are some…

  00:50:17:09 - 00:50:25:09

  Sean Dube: quick takeaways here, or, like, what are some recommendations that we could leave the audience with that are maybe, like… because I think what we're describing is finding balance.

  00:50:25:18 - 00:50:34:10

  Sean Dube: Right, and it's like… So how do we find balance in an industry That, doesn't belong.

  00:50:34:15 - 00:50:40:01

  Sean Dube: reward it. It doesn't reward overworking, either. It doesn't reward anything. It rewards luck.

  00:50:40:14 - 00:50:46:02

  Sean Dube: So, how do you, how do you find balance? Like, what is, what is balance?

  00:50:47:02 - 00:50:54:21

  Patrick Quinlan: I mean, I think… I… I crave balance, and yet I think I also have to remind myself it will never exist, so I like thinking…

  00:50:54:21 - 00:50:56:06

  Sean Dube: Fluid. Balance is fluid.

  00:50:56:06 - 00:51:10:05

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, so I really like thinking about seasons, like, if you were a boxer, you're in training season, and then you're in prepping season for the fight, and then you're in fight season, and then you're, like, in recovery, like, I like thinking about…

  00:51:10:15 - 00:51:11:11

  Patrick Quinlan: Water…

  00:51:11:15 - 00:51:25:23

  Patrick Quinlan: what is that? And you mentioned something before we jumped on the pod about, like, weightlifting would be the same thing, right? It's like, there's recovery mode. So it's like, where am I recovering? I think would be a better question of… for balance. Where am I getting life, or where am I…

  00:51:26:18 - 00:51:27:15

  Patrick Quinlan: if I'm…

  00:51:27:23 - 00:51:35:17

  Patrick Quinlan: If I'm pouring from the cup of creativity into a project or into class a few times a week, when am I filling it up?

  00:51:35:17 - 00:51:36:03

  Sean Dube: It'll leave.

  00:51:36:07 - 00:51:42:17

  Patrick Quinlan: Lazy Sunday, maybe it's… A membership night at Vidiots, or… or…

  00:51:43:03 - 00:51:43:13

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:51:43:13 - 00:51:46:03

  Patrick Quinlan: Egyptian or something, but I would say…

  00:51:46:20 - 00:51:50:12

  Patrick Quinlan: just looking out for, well, what's the opposite, and where can I…

  00:51:50:20 - 00:51:51:06

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:51:51:06 - 00:51:52:16

  Patrick Quinlan: Turn that up a little bit.

  00:51:53:02 - 00:51:53:21

  Sean Dube: For sure.

  00:51:55:01 - 00:51:57:08

  Sean Dube: For me, I think I try to do…

  00:51:58:00 - 00:52:02:02

  Sean Dube: I try to do, like, 3 things every week, and I'll feel pretty content.

  00:52:02:08 - 00:52:11:24

  Sean Dube: Which is, like, something creative, something business-related, and something hobby-focused, right? And it's like, and if I can get those 3 things, the week feels pretty good.

  00:52:12:05 - 00:52:26:06

  Sean Dube: And that's, like, an achievable amount for me that I know that I can get those things done. And sometimes it's, like, I'm stealing a little bit of time from work, like on my lunch break, or something, to, like, send emails, or, you know, trying to write something

  00:52:26:10 - 00:52:33:15

  Sean Dube: you know, that I'm really interested in, or read something, you know, so, like, I don't know, I'm… that's the way that I think of it, though, is it's…

  00:52:33:18 - 00:52:45:10

  Sean Dube: It's like, what is a business outreach, what is some kind of, like, creative outreach, and then what is a… just, like, a hobby, pure for myself, not entertainment-related thing that I'm also doing?

  00:52:46:13 - 00:52:48:13

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, I like that. I used to do…

  00:52:49:08 - 00:53:03:14

  Patrick Quinlan: three things, like, in a day I wanted to try to do, and sometimes it was just journaling could count, right? I think journaling's great for, like… that's a creative outlet. Yeah. Even if you are just school-conscious, not, like, doing the morning pages thing, like, if you're just…

  00:53:04:02 - 00:53:06:08

  Patrick Quinlan: Getting thoughts on paper.

  00:53:06:16 - 00:53:18:10

  Patrick Quinlan: you're expressing yourself, that's pretty creative, and then it's like, what are your duties that day? Do you have to go to work? You know, do you have to, like, are you making enough to survive? Are you taking care of your body, right? Like…

  00:53:18:14 - 00:53:19:14

  Patrick Quinlan: What are the sort of…

  00:53:20:00 - 00:53:27:21

  Patrick Quinlan: those things, and then, you know, what's your… in relation to people, I think, too, like, are you staying in touch with your friends and family, and like…

  00:53:28:21 - 00:53:32:16

  Patrick Quinlan: Interested in other people's experiences.

  00:53:32:24 - 00:53:39:03

  Patrick Quinlan: I mean, I'm thinking, like, for the… for the people… who are…

  00:53:40:03 - 00:53:45:00

  Patrick Quinlan: Type A, filling there every 30 minutes is filled in a calendar.

  00:53:45:10 - 00:53:49:02

  Patrick Quinlan: And it's with classes and projects, and…

  00:53:49:15 - 00:53:56:04

  Patrick Quinlan: and meetings, and coffee dates, and, like, all the rest, I would challenge them to put an hour

  00:53:56:13 - 00:53:57:21

  Patrick Quinlan: In their week.

  00:53:57:24 - 00:54:00:18

  Patrick Quinlan: Where nothing happens, and you stare at a wall.

  00:54:01:12 - 00:54:02:09

  Patrick Quinlan: Like…

  00:54:03:02 - 00:54:10:09

  Patrick Quinlan: the dude, like, Stephan King famously says he stares at a wall until he's bored, and then he starts… he has to write.

  00:54:11:06 - 00:54:13:06

  Patrick Quinlan: Writing comes out of the boredom.

  00:54:14:01 - 00:54:22:24

  Patrick Quinlan: And I think, like, just stare at a wall and, like, see what comes up. And chances are, if you do it long enough, some other stuff that you're avoiding will come up.

  00:54:23:09 - 00:54:28:13

  Patrick Quinlan: And then that'll… force you to ask some questions, or like, well, how can I…

  00:54:29:07 - 00:54:34:16

  Patrick Quinlan: If I'm avoiding them, they have power, so how can I take some of that power away and empower myself in a new way?

  00:54:37:24 - 00:54:39:23

  Sean Dube: Yeah, I think that's good advice.

  00:54:43:10 - 00:54:51:16

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, I think, like, like… Something I'm trying to do, I'm not… I haven't succeeded yet, so… You know.

  00:54:51:22 - 00:54:55:14

  Patrick Quinlan: Long-time listeners can call me out on my BS.

  00:54:56:06 - 00:55:10:03

  Patrick Quinlan: By writing in to ask at SupportingActors.com. But, you know, like, I'm trying to also take pressure off of myself for certain things. It's like, oh, I want to write. I have this idea I want to write. Okay.

  00:55:10:15 - 00:55:13:08

  Patrick Quinlan: Do I need 2 hours to write it, or could I…

  00:55:13:11 - 00:55:19:06

  Patrick Quinlan: just give it 10 minutes. Like, could… and what if I did 10 minutes every day? It would add… it would…

  00:55:19:21 - 00:55:20:22

  Patrick Quinlan: and add up.

  00:55:21:08 - 00:55:26:07

  Patrick Quinlan: And carving away 10 minutes is easier, but that's still so hard sometimes, because…

  00:55:26:23 - 00:55:27:12

  Sean Dube: It's amazing.

  00:55:27:12 - 00:55:29:07

  Patrick Quinlan: habit to… and it's like…

  00:55:29:07 - 00:55:29:24

  Sean Dube: There's just starting.

  00:55:29:24 - 00:55:34:03

  Patrick Quinlan: You gotta transition into it, and out of it, and everything, so…

  00:55:34:17 - 00:55:46:07

  Patrick Quinlan: I'm trying to figure out how could I remove that friction of transition, be like, there's no judgment here, I just am literally just one page, or 10 minutes, or whatever, and then just see where it goes.

  00:55:46:18 - 00:55:49:23

  Patrick Quinlan: But in the reality is, like.

  00:55:50:14 - 00:55:55:00

  Patrick Quinlan: we… I think we did the last quarterly update, is like, I've had to just let go of things.

  00:55:55:04 - 00:55:59:05

  Patrick Quinlan: Like, just… There's a lot of things you just have to let go of, and it's…

  00:55:59:09 - 00:56:02:11

  Patrick Quinlan: They can come back, we can return to them, right?

  00:56:02:21 - 00:56:03:19

  Sean Dube: But… Yeah.

  00:56:04:08 - 00:56:09:16

  Patrick Quinlan: I think you have to go after what, like, follow your bliss a little bit, and not… not let the,

  00:56:10:18 - 00:56:14:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Not let the anxiety drive you, right?

  00:56:14:09 - 00:56:15:03

  Sean Dube: Right.

  00:56:15:14 - 00:56:25:10

  Sean Dube: For sure. Yeah, follow your bliss, or find joy, or whatever you wanna, whatever verbiage works for you. But that's what it is.

  00:56:25:10 - 00:56:30:03

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, and like… I, I, I would also say, like,

  00:56:30:13 - 00:56:36:15

  Patrick Quinlan: Like, we were talking about subscriptions, like, do a freeze, do a… do a fast, do a 30-day…

  00:56:37:05 - 00:56:41:15

  Patrick Quinlan: No purchasing of acting-related business.

  00:56:41:18 - 00:56:44:15

  Patrick Quinlan: You know? And I wouldn't… for myself, I would be like.

  00:56:44:18 - 00:56:48:08

  Patrick Quinlan: No… like, I would do a media blackout. No.

  00:56:48:08 - 00:56:48:19

  Sean Dube: Yeah.

  00:56:48:19 - 00:56:58:22

  Patrick Quinlan: no podcasts about the business, except for ours, but, like, you know, like, because I can, like, get in a zone about, like, oh, I gotta keep up with this pod, because, like.

  00:56:58:23 - 00:56:59:14

  Sean Dube: Oh, yeah.

  00:56:59:14 - 00:57:02:21

  Patrick Quinlan: And blah blah blah, and it's just like… Well…

  00:57:03:05 - 00:57:15:24

  Patrick Quinlan: going on a walk without listening to a podcast would also be beneficial, probably, and going, or, you know, not feeling like I need to hear the end of that, but rather, what's that thing, what was that one scene I wanted to write down might be better, so, like…

  00:57:16:08 - 00:57:20:09

  Patrick Quinlan: Cleansing of the, cleansing of the clutter, maybe.

  00:57:21:04 - 00:57:32:14

  Sean Dube: Yeah, I think it's… I think that's a good life tip, too, is, like, challenge your habits, right? If you find yourself, you know, relying on something too often, do it without it for a little bit. It's like, you know,

  00:57:32:21 - 00:57:42:11

  Sean Dube: that's definitely something that… I don't know where I got it from, but my dad was this way, so that must be it. I must have watched it in him, where…

  00:57:42:16 - 00:57:46:24

  Sean Dube: He was just a very, very flexible person with his habits.

  00:57:47:05 - 00:57:54:09

  Sean Dube: You know, and it's just the, like… Yeah, just be willing…

  00:57:54:14 - 00:58:14:05

  Sean Dube: to do new things. Just be willing to say yes to new things. Or, if you are finding yourself relying on something where, like, oh, I can't go on a walk without my headphones, that's usually an indication that you need to go on a walk without your headphones, right? So, it's like, you need to pay attention to that stuff and be self-prescriptive.

  00:58:14:15 - 00:58:15:21

  Sean Dube: for, for classes.

  00:58:15:21 - 00:58:25:17

  Patrick Quinlan: the wardrobe trick of, like, I want to buy a new piece of clothing, or I gotta get rid of one from my closet. It's like, that same can apply to acting books, I'm telling myself right now. For sure.

  00:58:25:17 - 00:58:27:20

  Sean Dube: I got, too many, yeah.

  00:58:27:20 - 00:58:37:03

  Patrick Quinlan: A lot of books I haven't read yet that, you know, I could challenge myself to, like, read what you own, then go get the thing, or whatever. So, like, finding that, yeah, that reward.

  00:58:37:17 - 00:58:44:15

  Patrick Quinlan: It's like, how can I delay the reward? Let's turn this thing I want, that's a habit into a reward for doing another thing, maybe.

  00:58:44:24 - 00:58:46:05

  Sean Dube: For sure, for sure.

  00:58:47:13 - 00:58:52:16

  Sean Dube: Well, I think that… Kind of covers the over-optimization of it all.

  00:58:52:24 - 00:58:55:21

  Patrick Quinlan: We certainly didn't optimize our takes on…

  00:58:55:21 - 00:59:03:13

  Sean Dube: We did not, we did not. But that's how you know it's real. Anyways…

  00:59:03:13 - 00:59:03:23

  Patrick Quinlan: dumb.

  00:59:04:02 - 00:59:07:16

  Sean Dube: Yeah, let's hit some, some ad libs.

  00:59:08:11 - 00:59:10:17

  Sean Dube: So, do you want to start us off this week?

  00:59:10:17 - 00:59:17:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Yeah, the… now I've gotta just check the score here and see if anything's changed.

  00:59:17:12 - 00:59:19:07

  Patrick Quinlan: The Chicago Cubs.

  00:59:19:09 - 00:59:27:01

  Patrick Quinlan: Have the… player, Pete Crowe Armstrong, whose parents are actors, by the way.

  00:59:27:01 - 00:59:27:17

  Sean Dube: Okay.

  00:59:27:17 - 00:59:30:17

  Patrick Quinlan: grew up in LA, which is just a phenomenal…

  00:59:30:20 - 00:59:34:09

  Patrick Quinlan: little detail, but Pete Crowe Armstrong,

  00:59:34:18 - 00:59:41:18

  Patrick Quinlan: As of this weekend, he hit 5 home runs in 2 days, and he's, like, on pace to,

  00:59:43:05 - 00:59:51:12

  Patrick Quinlan: He's on pace to have a ton of homers and to maybe be the MVP, and he hits a homer lately, he's doing this thing where he hits a homer.

  00:59:51:19 - 00:59:53:14

  Patrick Quinlan: He knows… he can…

  00:59:53:14 - 00:59:54:07

  Sean Dube: It's like…

  00:59:54:11 - 01:00:03:05

  Patrick Quinlan: It doesn't get very far before he just turns around, no look, flips the bat, and he just… it's so smooth, it's just like…

  01:00:03:15 - 01:00:05:03

  Patrick Quinlan: And it's a level of…

  01:00:05:17 - 01:00:11:04

  Patrick Quinlan: I want to say cockiness, but I really like the idea. Cockiness feels like a negative, but it's just like…

  01:00:11:17 - 01:00:23:00

  Patrick Quinlan: Swagger, man! It's so much swagger, and he's got a lot of love for what he does, and I admire that, that he's just, like, owning it, like, I effing love…

  01:00:23:08 - 01:00:29:20

  Patrick Quinlan: playing this, and I'm like, oh yeah, bring some swagger to everything, you know? Why not?

  01:00:30:06 - 01:00:33:01

  Sean Dube: Yeah, yeah, that's fun. It's, it's…

  01:00:33:05 - 01:00:37:08

  Sean Dube: like, I'm envious of that level of confidence.

  01:00:37:08 - 01:00:37:23

  Patrick Quinlan: I know.

  01:00:38:01 - 01:00:46:12

  Sean Dube: You know, it's, because I annoy myself in, like, when I do have it, you know? I'm like, well, I'm insufferable right now, but…

  01:00:46:12 - 01:00:47:17

  Patrick Quinlan: In the background, yeah, yeah.

  01:00:47:17 - 01:00:48:17

  Sean Dube: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  01:00:48:17 - 01:00:49:03

  Patrick Quinlan: blood.

  01:00:49:10 - 01:01:03:08

  Sean Dube: Yeah, for sure, I could probably do without. But, anyways, my one cool thing is, Battlefield 6 right now has this, like, Top Gun crossover.

  01:01:03:10 - 01:01:18:04

  Sean Dube: Where, and it's, like, jet and, and, aircraft carrier, like, warfare, and it's a super fun game mode that, I've been playing a lot with my brother. He just had a child, and,

  01:01:18:15 - 01:01:25:24

  Sean Dube: He's surprised with how much downtime he has, because there's so little to do as the father for the first couple months.

  01:01:26:00 - 01:01:42:07

  Sean Dube: So he's like, hey man, you wanna play this thing? And it's like, we've been playing that, and then kind of just talking through how he's feeling about this adjustment, which is, like, a crazy thing, but, but yeah, so Battlefield 6 has this Top Gun crossover, and that's gonna be my ad this week.

  01:01:42:07 - 01:01:42:23

  Patrick Quinlan: Nice.

  01:01:44:01 - 01:02:00:06

  Sean Dube: And then I get to hear the Kenny Loggins, like, every time I log in. Yeah, and it's a good time. But, so anyways, thank you, listener, for listening to Supporting Actors. I have been Sean Dube.

  01:02:00:06 - 01:02:01:13

  Patrick Quinlan: And I'm Patrick Quinlan.

  01:02:01:20 - 01:02:19:11

  Sean Dube: And, please send us an email, ask at SupportingActors.com, let us know about your experience with over-optimization, and, review, rate, subscribe, Spotify, Apple Music, Apple Podcasts, rather, YouTube.

  01:02:19:21 - 01:02:21:08

  Sean Dube: Thank you so much.

  01:02:21:08 - 01:02:27:05

  Patrick Quinlan: Tune in next week, where we will break down the invisible walls of the mime industry.

  01:02:29:08 - 01:02:32:02

  Sean Dube: Never see us coming.

  01:02:32:02 - 01:02:33:01

  Patrick Quinlan: or hear us coming.

  01:02:33:01 - 01:02:35:19

  Sean Dube: Never hear us coming.

Are you actually building an acting career, or are you just paying hundreds of dollars a month to manage your own anxiety?

In this episode of Supporting Actors, Sean Dube and Patrick Quinlan confront the "Optimization Trap"—the modern phenomenon where working performers stack four classes, hire multiple private coaches, buy endless webinars, and fill every waking half-hour with career busyness just to feel like they are moving forward. We break down how retail and coaching algorithms weaponize late-summer capitalist guilt to part actors from their money right before the fall season ramps up.

Drawing on personal experience—from managing burnout and "action bias" to navigating the realities of fatherhood—we discuss the "Four Burners Theory," why one person can't ride two horses, and how to find the minimum effective dose of training. We also analyze when staying in acting class stops being a craft gym and turns into an emotional hiding place, how to run a 30-day spending freeze, and why cultivating a real life outside the industry is the best thing you can do for your acting.

In this episode, we cover:

• The September Guilt Pitch: How the coaching industry exploits slow audition cycles and back-to-school anxiety to sell high-priced intensives.

• Action Bias vs. Strategic Execution: Why hitting "purchase" on classes and webinars tricks your brain into feeling safe while avoiding real discomfort.

• The Minimum Effective Dose: Identifying the smallest amount of time and money needed to keep your instrument sharp without causing creative burnout.

• Hiding in the Gym: Spotting the difference between an acting community that challenges you and a comfortable bubble where people only stare at their navels.

• The Four Burners & Seasonal Ratios: Shifting focus across quarters (8 months on, 4 months off) rather than trying to boil all four pots at once.

• The 30-Day Industry Fast: Freezing non-essential subscriptions, walking without headphones, and letting boredom spark genuine writing.

Timestamps

00:02 - Intro: The Optimization Trap & separating busyness from business

01:25 - The September Guilt Pitch: How cyclical marketing preys on post-summer anxiety

04:17 - The Minimum Effective Dose: Oversaturating your schedule vs. smart input

05:46 - The Four Burners Theory: Why you can't boil every pot at once

07:34 - "One Ass Can't Ride Two Horses": Sweet Home Alabama wisdom on focus

08:31 - Financially Controlling Anxiety: Self-tape pressure and taking on too much

13:07 - Action Bias: Why our brains love the dopamine of hitting "purchase"

19:42 - Procrastination in Disguise: Using text analysis classes to avoid uncomfortable work

21:07 - Hiding in the Studio: Why seeking easy approval in class keeps you from working

29:16 - Class Hopping & Mastery: Learning from different perspectives and outside observation

34:16 - Adaptation Happens Outside the Gym: Why taking breaks actually improves craft

42:08 - Unhinged Habits & Seasonal Living: The 8-4 framework for project focus

46:12 - Getting a Life: Why having outside hobbies makes you a more interesting actor

53:56 - Staring at a Wall: Stephen King, boredom, and running a 30-day spending freeze

59:17 - Ad Libs: Pete Crow-Armstrong’s home run swagger and Battlefield 6 Top Gun crossover